TRANSCRIPT - RADIO NATIONAL INTERVIEW - FRIDAY 27 JUNE 2025

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
RADIO NATIONAL WITH SALLY SARA
FRIDAY, 27 JUNE 2025

SUBJECTS: TERRORGRAM FORMALLY LISTED AS A TERRORIST ORGANISATION, ISRAEL-IRAN CONFLICT, AUSTRALIA’S DEFENCE SPENDING, NSW PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY INTO THE DURAL CARAVAN INCIDENT; GAMBLING REFORM

SALLY SARA: Australian members or supporters of online far-right extremist network Terrorgram will now face up to 25 years in jail after the Federal Government's decision to formally list the group as a terrorist organisation. According to the government, Terrorgram advocates for and provides instructions on how to conduct a terrorist attack and has been responsible for successfully inspiring terrorist attacks in the United States, Europe and Asia. Joining me now is Tony Burke, the Minister for Home Affairs. Minister, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

TONY BURKE: Good morning, Sally.

SARA: Before we get to Terrorgram, let's quickly turn to the Middle East. How confident is the Federal Government that the Israel-Iran war is short-lived?

BURKE: Well, certainly we want to see the ceasefire hold, we want to see a return to diplomacy being the pathway forward. As you'd appreciate Australia is not a major voice with respect to Iran, but we are still making sure that our voice is heard in that respect.

SARA: Given the developments in the Middle East, what information do you have about how this is impacting communities here in Australia?

BURKE: There was a meeting yesterday that Anne Aly, as the Minister for Multicultural Affairs and myself held with representatives of the Iranian community from all around Australia.  We had more than 50 there, including a couple of the local members with significant Iranian communities, Jerome Laxale and Gabriel Ng. One of the things that the community were, you know, they went through a range of issues, but one of the things they were asking me - and Anne - to keep making public and clear to the Australian people is the difference between the regime in Iran and both the people of Iran and in particular the Iranian community in Australia. Whenever there's a situation like what we see at the moment, there can be a tendency for some in Australia to not understand the local community and to somehow blame them for the Government from which they have fled. There are many reasons for the Iranian community to be proud of their heritage, and they should not in any way be associated with that regime. That was a message loud and clear. I don't know the examples of, you know, comments, discrimination, challenges that people are finding at home, but it's really important at this moment, where we've got fellow Australians who are worried about their own family members, worried about people who they love, that we don't start to question them in that way, and that we give people the support as fellow Australians that they deserve.

SARA: This week we've seen NATO members agree to lift defence spending after demands from US President Donald Trump. As a key ally of the US, does this development change Australia's position on Defence spending?

BURKE: Well, we have been increasing our defence spending; there's more than $10 billion additional in Defence spending that we've already budgeted for; across the next decade it's something in the order of $50 billion extra. There's significant money that we're putting on the table. It's been the biggest increase in peacetime that we've seen. So that's already on the table. Our.. Australia's approach, very much, is you start with the question about the capability. So we don't start with the question of how much money and then start to invent capability within it, we start with the question, what's required to be able to keep Australians safe; what's required to be able to meet our defence needs; what's that capability, and then you look at the expense issue, but you don't just - there's no area of public policy in Australia where we start with the financial envelope and then say, "Okay, spend what you want" within it.

SARA: You've announced this morning that the Government has taken an extra step against the online far-right extremist network Terrorgram. In February, sanctions were placed on the online entity. What's behind the Government's decision to now list it as a terrorist organisation?

BURKE: Yeah, this is very different to a lot of the other listings that we've done. So when people normally think about a terrorist organisation, you think, you know, small groups of people meeting in private rooms, finding people to recruit and working as a cell. Effectively, this is, you know, the platform Terrorgram works a bit differently to this, but if people imagine a big chat group dedicated to hatred and violence. It's the situation where the members won't necessarily know each other, they won't necessarily know the people who they're recruiting, but the concept of what they are trying to do is a direct threat to the safety of Australians, and there have been specific instances where this has been used in order to threaten Australians. The sort of hatred we're talking about here, it's sometimes loosely referred to as "extreme right wing terrorism", you're talking about things like white supremacism, those sorts of views, and they encourage the - not just the sharing of the hatred, but the sharing of acts of violence and how-to guides for people to be able to commit these sorts of acts of violence.

SARA: How do you stop these members just regrouping under another chat game, and can the Government keep up with that if that's happening?

BURKE: Oh, you never stop chasing these characters down, you never stop. This listing won't be the last thing we have to do against far-right white supremacist groups; there will be more. And you know, there were some groups that were - that have previously been listed, Terrorgram is the first one of this particular form. But as it's been made clear in the threat assessments that have been made, including from Director-General of ASIO, the nature of the terrorist threat is changing. So those cells that I described, we keep monitoring any existence like that; that work never stops. But there are new forms of risks where we have to make sure we keep Australians safe where you can get, in particular young males, being radicalised online, really fast points of radicalisation, and mixed ideologies, so different forms of hatred which, you know, logically incoherent but they all congregate around the one principle of violence. There's both a direct action in this listing, but also a public message. These sorts of groups try to tell Australians, a whole lot of Australians that they are not welcome here; they try to tell people that they intend for them to not be safe. What the Government's doing in this listing is we're saying, "No, no, no, it's the hatred and the bigotry and the violence that isn't welcome here" and we're sending that message loud and clear with some very serious criminal penalties behind anyone who wants to engage in this particular network.

SARA: On a separate matter, the foiled caravan terror plot in Dural in New South Wales earlier this year, it's currently the subject of a New South Wales Parliamentary Inquiry. State Government staffers are said to appear at the inquiry today after earlier being threatened with arrest if they fail to appear. Are you concerned that there could be a precedent at the Federal level of compelling evidence in this way?

BURKE: Oh, look, one thing that I'll say, you know, I've been in charge of our tactics now, as first, Manager of Opposition Business and now Leader of the House for the Labor Party on the floor of the Parliament since 2013. Every time I've started, there's been a conversation with my counterpart, so originally, that would have been Christopher Pyne, went through a few people, including Peter Dutton. The new counterpart's Alex Hawke, and there are two things that we always agree that we will try to keep out of the political debate, and that is family members and staff members. There are some countries, like America, where the staff of politicians are the public face, they're doing the interviews, all of that. That's not how it works in Australia, and I, you know, I really think the volunteers for public life are the Members of Parliament, and it should be enough that you are - if there's an argument, you're going after each other, and that can sometimes be pretty --

SARA: Isn't it part of accountability when it comes to staffers and public servants, they appear in front of things like Senate Estimates, don't they?

BURKE: Well, House of Reps ones never have, and I'm talking about what happens with respect of House of Reps, so in terms of what you say there, I don't know of any precedent for that, I'm not sure if there's even a precedent for Senate staff, and in terms of the Federal Parliament, I really - my action has always been Members of Parliament, when you're under fire, you're answerable for your whole office and the focus is on the Members of Parliament. I'm not someone who ever blames my staff or goes after someone else's staff.

SARA: Just finally, tomorrow will mark two years since the late Labor MP, Peta Murphy, handed down or Parliamentary Inquiry report on gambling reform. Why is it taking the Government so long to respond in full to the inquiry's 31 recommendations, let alone to implement change on those recommendations?

BURKE: Look, Michelle Rowland, when she held the portfolio, dealt with this many times, and now you've got Anika Wells, who's got responsibility for that since the last election. As you know, and as people have said on your program before, there is a whole lot that we have done, you know, with respect to the use of credit cards and things like that, what we've done with respect to online gaming, and I would say more steps with respect to the dangers of gambling than any other Federal Government. So have we at this point dealt with every recommendation? No, we haven't, but I wouldn't want to lose sight of the fact that this Government has done more than –

SARA: Why haven't you, why is this taking so long, because it had unanimous Committee support, didn't it?

BURKE: There are lots of reports that come through that are unanimous, it doesn't mean the Government immediately implements every recommendation, that doesn't happen. But as I say, you wouldn't want to lose sight of the fact that we've done more than any other government in this policy area.

SARA: Will those recommendations be dealt with in full in this term of government, can you guarantee that?

BURKE: Well, I'm not going to give a guarantee on behalf of another portfolio. I've told you what we've done, and the nature of reports. This is one that keeps being focused on. I respect that, there's a lot of people very passionate about this area, but it has never been the case under any government that committee reports come through and the Government of the Day just immediately photocopies them.

SARA: Tony Burke, thank you for your time.

ENDS